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WHO’S WHO: The Definitive Podcast of the DC Universe, Volume XVII

Who's Who: The Definitive Podcast of the DC UniverseThe Fire and Water Podcast Presents… WHO’S WHO: THE DEFINITIVE PODCAST OF THE DC UNIVERSE, Volume XVII!

The seventeenth episode of our WHO’S WHO podcast is now available — the show that dares to tackle one of DC Comics’ greatest publications! Each episode Rob and I cover a single issue of the legendary 1980s series, Who’s Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe. This time around we chat about WHO’S WHO: Volume XVII, discussing characters such as Nightwing, Northwind, Ocean Master, OMAC, The Patchwork Man, The Penguin, Per Degaton, and many more! We wrap up the show with Who’s Who Listener Feedback! This episode sponsored in part by InStockTrades.com!

Be sure to check out our Tumblr site for several pages from this Who’s Who issue: FireandWaterPodcast.Tumblr.com!

Have a question or comment? Send us an e-mail at: firewaterpodcast@comcast.net

You can find the seventeenth episode of WHO’S WHO: THE DEFINITIVE PODCAST OF THE DC UNIVERSE on iTunes. Each episode is released as part of THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST feed. While you’re on iTunes, please drop us a review. Alternatively, you may download the podcast by right-clicking here, choosing “Save Target/Link As”, and selecting a location on your computer to save the file (61 MB).

Thanks to my co-host Rob Kelly, Sea King of THE AQUAMAN SHRINE, for doing all the post-production on this episode! Special thanks to Daniel Adams and Ashton Burge with their band The Bad Mamma Jammas for our fantastic Who’s Who theme song!

One of the coolest aspects of each Who’s Who issue was the amazing wrap-around cover! Check out this impressive George Perez cover for Volume XVII! Click the image to enlarge.

Who’s Who: The Definitive Podcast of the DC Universe, Volume XVII cover by George Perez

Support Firestorm (and the WHO’S WHO podcast)! Fan the flame!

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31 Comments

  1. Siskoid says:

    Cover: Not my favorite Perez composition, but it does have nice bits, like Nimbus’ black trail crossing in front of three darkness-related characters.

    Nightshade: Will always be dear to me because she was a member of the Suicide Squad, though the costume she gained while on the team was terrible.

    Night-Slayer: Like Rob, I like the art, even if I’m always seeing Wonder Woman in the surprint about to kiss the Slayer. I’m thinking of making this one of my Who’s This? targets, what do you think?

    Nightwing and Flamebird: The belts are a bit heavy, but I do like the costumes quite a lot. Reign of the Supermen post on the subject: http://siskoid.blogspot.ca/2011/04/reign-of-supermen-165-nightwing.html

    Nimbus: Neat effect on his dark bottom half.

    Nocturna: This entry was when I decided all of Batman’s girlfriends were villains. Vicki Vale never had a chance. She DID show up in Tim Drake’s series, and unlike her brother has made regular occasional appearances since. As a member of the Injustice League at Black Canary/Green Arrow’s wedding, in Trinity fighting Hawkman, and most recently, as part of the group of villains in Forever Evil. She ALMOST appeared on the Batman animated series, but they planned to make her a vampire and the blood-letting idea was nixed.

    Nuclear Family: I actually stole this image for an improv show poster. The event was an improvised play about a 50s-style family. Yes, somebody played the dog. I posted the image here: http://siskoid.blogspot.ca/2007/03/post-on-posters-get-it.html

    Obsidian: I agree that it’s not OBVIOUS in capital letters that he’s the son of Alan Scott, but in context, one child (Jade) is the light, and the other is the dark – Brightest Day and Blackest Night, so to speak. I always thought he was the coolest-looking Infinitor.

    OMAC: I LOVE LOVE LOVE OMAC. His issue of DC Comics Presents was an early favorite (and my first exposure), and it wasn’t until only a few years ago, after I got my hands on the OMAC Omnibus, that I got to read the awesome awesome original stories. There’s NOTHING like seeing OMAC punch AN ENTIRE ARMY simultaneously! Shame this had to be one of Kirby’s weakest pieces for Who’s Who.

    Onyx: Definitely a target for Who’s This? despite Wikipedia telling me she appeared several times after those Green Arrow back-ups, but I don’t regularly read anything involving the Red Hood, y’know? Pictures I’ve seen tell me she’s always been a victim of whatever fashions from music videos played during whatever era she appeared in.

    The Outsider: Absolutely the WORST superhuman-for-supporting cast member entry. Not only isn’t Alfred’s history explored, but his face doesn’t even appear in the surprint, one of the few character entries NOT to feature their face there at all.

    The Outsiders: The truth is out. The book was called Batman and the Outsiders before because Batman was never actually an Outsider, thus his absence here. BY THE WAY! I’ll be running over-critical Outsiders material all through the Winter Games, specifically, the issues with Maxie Zeus and the New Olympians.

    Outsiders HQ: A total waste of space, I agree. Station Markovia sucks, just as the Wayne Foundation building’s basement did. To think, the FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE didn’t get an entry. Think about that and try not to tear this page out.

    Paradise Island: We need more Kanga races in modern comics. Was there some kind of continuity where the Amazons DID come from the Amazon? Or is Shag just reversing history like we’re on Earth-3? The forest is named after the Greek myth, not the other way around, after all.

    Not much to add on the rest, you said it all.

    There sure are a lot of double-page spreads in this one, could it have the smallest number of entries in the whole series?

    And sorry about the TD comparison, it was meant neither as an insult nor as a compliment, merely an observation on the players’ vocal tones.

  2. The K.o.T. says:

    Just accidentally stumbled upon this site… super excited that I did- AND excited about this podcast! Always enjoyed those books back in the day- and it sounds like an excellent idea for a show! Downloaded this episode- I’ll be giving it a listen tonight…

  3. Wow! Interesting mix of characters this time out. The Outsiders, one of their more infamous 5-Man-Band villain teams (The Nuclear Family), Orion, Ocean Master, Nighwing, Nuklon (whom I know much better from JSA as Atom-Smasher), and of course, anchoring the whole she-bang is that furious and fearsome fowl, the Penguin! (Long distance high five to Jack Dauer.) “Every one of ‘em’s got a mother!”

    Can’t wait to get into the episode, fellas!

    PS: Is it bad that the first thought I have when we got to the ‘P’ section was the bit from Animaniacs about Wakko Warner “Popping his ‘P’s'” in the recording studio?

    Dot: Oh, thanks for your support, Mr. P-Pop-Into-the-Mike!
    Wakko: Oh, pooh! I never pop my P’s!
    Director: Uh, Wakko, we got a big P-pop on “pooh”. Could we have that again?
    Dot: HAH!

    Yeah, maybe it’s just me. :) Although this being a DC Comics podcast, a Warner Brothers show is at least topical.

  4. Anj says:

    Thanks for another great episode! I really love these Who’s Who shows. As usual, I have tried to hold my comments to a handful of characters.

    First off though, the cover. I agree that this cover, done entirely by Perez really pops and is better than the Giordano inked ones which seem sloppy in some places. I like how Nightslayer is crouching behind the Nocturna/Patchwork Man duo. Given his possessive love for her, that was a nice touch by Perez. And I don’t know why Per Degaton and Orion seem to be mirroring each other. Nice pick-up on the Nightshade/Obsidian wrapped in Nimbus visual Shag.

    Nightwing and Flamebird: I am shocked at the lack of love for the characters by Rob. Shocked! This was the Silver Age … of course Kandor would have its own super-heroes. If J.Wilbur Wolfingham has his own page, these two deserve their own. I love the powers section of their entry. Although they have utility belts and weapons, ‘they prefer to use their own fists to subdue criminals.” Okay, while I admit their overall stories are nothing groundbreaking, they were a sometime feature in the 70s Superman Family dollar book with achingly beautiful art by Marshall Rogers. Worth looking for them in the dollar box.

    2) Nimbus – I actually like his origin as the disembodied soul of a Branz warrior. A villain’s soul becoming a ghostly hero? Not bad. One thing I have never understood is his powers and this entry doesn’t help. I do love Shawn McManus’ art.

    3) Onyx – this is one of those entries where the art struck me. Jerome Moore was woefully underused by DC. This piece is perfect. Onyx is beautiful. You guys glossed over the best part of the text. Her headband held the ‘Wisdom Key’ which opened the Book of the Ages. But it is unknown if it still does.

    4) Nuclear Family – I never read the Outsiders but I loved the teams they fought, at least their entries. Force of July, Masters of Disaster, New Olympians are all so cool, at least visually. So I seem to have transferred some of their gloss onto the family. I love that the dog and brat become massive amounts of fallout!

    5) Infinity Inc. I will admit I bought the Crisis crossovers of this book but not much else. I loved half the characters but hated the other half. Jade, Obsidian, Brainwave Jr, Power Girl, Fury – all great. Nuklon, Northwind, Silver Scarab, New Hourman, New Dr. Midnight – yeesh.

    Anyways, thanks again for the show. Look forward to the next one … with Phantom Girl’s entry.

  5. Kyle Benning says:

    YAY!!! Another Episode of Who’s Who!!!

    Is Rob starting to come over to the dark side of Composite Superman lovers?

    That Northwind entry is gorgeous, I’m actually reworking my way through Infinity Inc right now, and yeah he’s a very visually appealing character, but very boring and bland personality wise.

    Ahahaha Jason Siegel as Nuklon, that’s great!

    The Infinity Inc have the cheerleader effect going, as a team they are awesome, but pull them aside and you realize that this great team that together seems like solid 10s are more like 6s on an individual level. I always found Obsidian a very visually appealing character. This is what bugged me most about the Alan Scott gay in the New 52 press grab. Here we had a character, Obsidian who was gay, but DC decided to scrap him, and make his dad gay instead, thus eliminating Obsidian. Why replace one gay character with another? Because the name Green Lantern brings more clout with it, thus throwing characterization and class out the window, and using this stunt purely for a publicity stunt to boost sales. Instead of taking an already established gay character, and making him more prominent and writing him well, they decide to instead completely change a character that’s been around for 70 years because they felt making the change would give them a temporary sale’s spike. At least that’s how it reads from a fan standpoint, but at least the whole situation gave us this humorous headline that provided quite the laugh. “Green Lantern Now Gay, Wood No Longer a Problem.”

    Hey I like OMAC!! Not Dan Didio’s version, but I do love the character, especially the classic Kirby design of the character, and not the current Blue skin or the Infinite Crisis robots. I really need to get around to picking up the Hardcover collecting those issues. Instock Trades is taking way too much of my money as of late.
    Speaking of Markovia, are you two watching Arrow? Looks like that’s going to be factoring into the current storyline, I’m hoping that means Geo-Force and Terra show up.

    I’m not sure why they didn’t have Al Plastino, the co-creator of the Parasite draw him for this entry. This just seems like an odd choice for the art team, not who I would’ve picked.

    Per Degaton! Such a great character, one of the greatest Villains in my opinion, and then he gets this hideous entry by Todd MacFarlane. Ugh. I get that Todd did a few issues of All-Star and Infinity Inc, but come on man! How do they not get either Jerry Ordway or Rich Buckler to draw this entry? Great character, but weak entry art wise. Bummer. I love the America vs. Justice Society 4 issue mini-series! Some gorgeous art, and a great recap of the All-Star Comics and All-Star Squadron run at that point. Just because I like to poke Rob, you will notice in the entire Senate hearing, with the JSA/All-Star Squadron recapping ALL of their adventures, there isn’t a single mention of the Golden Age Aquaman.

    Another great episode guys! Fan the Flame and Ride the Wave!

  6. Jeff R. says:

    You could probably have gotten away with the Parasite as Firestorm-related entry, here. Even if he did interact with the post-crisis version of the character. Alternatively, Per Degaton fought him with the JLA.

    Steven Bissette had just written (and, of course, drawn) a fill-in issue of Swamp Thing featuring the Patchwork Man about a month before this issue came out, by the way. (People who read Moore’s run in the trades may not be aware that is was Bissette who did that issue…)

    So, on to the Egregious Omission of the Month, where there are a number of candidates. First off, Legion Villain Department, where we have Omen and Prophet, a pair who were featured in an (awful) 4-part story a couple of years before, Organnus, a one-off, Omega, another one-off but part of an important story that gets mentioned in Matter Eater Lad and Brainiac 5’s entries, and, last but probably the most important of these, Ol-Vir, an evil Daxamite child who, unlike those others, managed to appear in more than one story.

    But it’s the other category where the award falls, the Destined for Greatness category of characters who existed but would up much more important in the future. The runner-up here is Oberon, who went on to be a major JLI supporting character, and the winner is The Parliament of Trees, introduced a good four months before this as clearly a major addition to the Swamp Thing mythology.

    I’ve always pronounced Per Degaton’s first name (or is it a title?) as “Pair”, no idea which of us is right here.

  7. Anthony Durso/The Toyroom says:

    Wow…feels like we just did this not too long ago. Keep ‘em coming!

    The Cover: Perez is the master. The price would be astronomical but someone (not me) should commission him to draw all of the “Who’s Who” covers he DIDN’T do the first time around.
    I’d be curious to see what compositions and juxtapositions he’d come up with for the characters.

    Nightshade: The inspiration for Watchmen’s Silk Spectre, even down to her relationship with Captain Atom (Dr. Manhattan)

    Nightwing: This suit is typically referred to as “Disco Nightwing” even though
    disco had been dead for a few years at this point. Once again, another Perez-
    designed costume that only he can do justice.

    Nightwing and Flamebird: Blasphemy, Mr. Kelley! This is the type of quirky Silver Age
    Superman stuff that I’ve missed since the Byrne reboot. Although I’ve followed Supes
    pretty consistently from Byrne until just before New 52, I don’t think anything grabs me
    like the Silver Age stuff. Krypto, Jor-El, Klukor, Turtle Boy, Red Kryptonite, Bizarro-Lois
    and yes, Composite Superman are all old friends and concepts that I love to revisit again and again. Quite often bizarre and weird, it’s still my happy place when I need to get away from the angst and despair of modern day comics. (Which is happening all the more frequently I’m sad to say…)

    Nimbus: Insert obligatory Omega Men comment here…

    Northwind: Even Jerry Ordway’s superb art can’t save this character for me. I always found it
    creepy that his father found a race of bird people and married into the royal family. Northwind
    became even more bizarre when he molted (?) and changed into the silent Kingdom Come-
    inspired Hawk-God character in Geoff John’s “JSA”.

    Nuclear Family: I liked the pseudo-50s look of these characters. Something about robot “Dad”
    smoking a pipe while he’s trying to blast Geo-Force into oblivion just speaks to me. I wonder if
    he, Roy Raymond, Commissioner Gordon and Doc Magnus frequent the same pipe den?

    Nuklon: Yes, the sum is greater than the parts when it comes to Infinity Inc. And outside of that
    book and the pen of Roy Thomas these characters never really seemed to work well when used
    by others.

    Obsidian: For some reason when this character was released as part of the
    DC Universe Classics toyline, he was referred to as just “Todd Rice” instead
    of Obsidian.

    Ocean Master: Just realized that, sadly, none of the Aquaman related entries in “Who’s Who” were
    drawn by the legendary Jim Aparo. I guess by this point he had moved on and had his hands full with
    The Outsiders but it still would have been nice to see him tackle something associated with the Sea King.

    OMAC: Kirby’s “Who’s Who” drawings fall into two distinct categories…”Hit” or “Miss”. This one is,
    once again, a “Miss” for me. By this point in his career, I think Jack was just going through the motions and collecting a paycheck.

    Omega Men: I think it’s a good thing that the Omega Men have never been collected in a TPB.
    Waste of paper. The only time I enjoyed these characters was when they appeared in issues of
    “Green Lantern” or “New Teen Titans”. OK supporting characters but not worth visiting on a monthly basis.

    Onyx: It’s obscure characters like this that make you wonder why they got a
    slot in “Who’s Who” and others that actually had their own title did not…

    Orion: Imagine how much shorter this series would have been if you removed
    all of the New Gods, Omega Men and Atari Force listings.

    The Outsider: Imagine a super-team made up of The Outsider, Insect Queen and
    Elastic Lad! What a best-seller! Geoff Johns get on it!

    If memory serves, Alfred was originally killed off by editor Julius Schwartz to stifle criticisms about three guys living together in a luxurious mansion. He was replaced by Dick Grayson’s
    Aunt Harriet. When the ’66 TV series hit, both characters co-existed in Wayne Manor.
    Since he had bumped off Alfred, Schwartz killed two birds with one stone by reviving
    him and making him the Outsider bad guy that had been plaguing the Dynamic Duo.

    The Outsiders: Dr. Jace is in the background taking notes because she is secretly
    working for The Manhunters (as seen in “Millennium”)

    Parasite: Ugh…This artwork is horrible. It’s often over-looked how teen-aged Jim Shooter
    created some great characters for DC back in the 60s.

    Pariah: If you had to get up every morning and put on this horrible costume and pop-up wherever
    there was a crisis, you’d be full of angst and woe too. Cut the guy some slack…

    Patchwork Man: Did Berni Wrightson do any work for “Who’s Who”? Why not?

    Penguin: If it wasn’t for Burgess Meredith I’d have no use for this character. He really
    made him a formidable foe for the Caped Crusader. And his is the performance on which
    all others are judged. I hated the Danny DeVito version and still find him gross,disgusting
    and ridiculous to this day. Give me the guy who waddles around in a tuxedo while swinging
    an umbrella any day. That being said, with the exception of “Detective Comics” #473, I don’t
    think I’ve ever really found a Penguin story I’ve liked.

    Per Degaton: If you think Degaton has it bad, just imagine how Professor
    Zee feels getting killed over and over again…Poor bastard.

    Persuader: This artwork is horrible. Should have been given to Steve Lightle.
    He would’ve rocked it!

    Until next issue! (Hey how about that for the closing tag?)

  8. Joe X says:

    Just a few comments on the new episode:

    Moench created a few new villains in his Batman and Detective runs that were throwbacks to the 40s style – Black Mask was the main one, and Film Freak was reinvented in the One Year Later Catwoman. Oh, and that Harvey Bullock guy, too.

    Both Northwind and Nuklon fell victim to Kingdom Come-ization, where lesser writers (I’m looking at you, Mr Johns) felt they had to turn current characters into their KC versions, much like what happened after Miller’s Dark Knight.

    Onyx showed up in Batman: War Games with a shaved head, working with Orpheus until he got killed.

  9. Siskoid says:

    Sorry Kyle, but Geo-Force is already dead! An episode of the 1st season had Brion Markov as a seismologist who died off screen. I almost applauded.

    Anthony: You allude to two cool teams that never were. The Pipe Club (Pipe Squad? Pipe Pack?) is at least as viable as the Trenchcoat Brigade, and the Supporting Cast could also include Lois “Superwoman” Lane, Perry “Magic Cigars” White, and Star Sapphire.

  10. Sphinx Magoo says:

    One of the weird things about the Omega Men was that I got a funny Inhumans vibe from them when they first showed up in Green Lantern and Teen Titans. Almost like they were meant to evoke that disparate look that the Inhumans used to have back in the day. I definitely liked them more when they were in exile on Earth than when they returned to the Vegan System and thy different creative teams systematically made each character unrecognizable from when they first appeared.

    Oh, and the Nuclear Family… The dad looks like The Professor from “Powerpuff Girls” and the mom looks like the mom from “Dexter’s Laboratory”; I’m surprised neither of you mentioned the apron she was wearing. And young Brat could be an anagram for Bart, like Bart Simpson. Actually, the Nuclear Family could be tweaked and redone as a version of the Fantastic Four and the Robinson family from “Lost in Space” in the new52 (or in “Astro City” as Kurt Busiek kind of did with his First Family).

  11. I agree with Rob that Perez’s art on the Nightwing entry is “stiff”. Actually, I would criticize that page as looking boring. I think of Dick Grayson first and foremost as Robin, but when I think of Nighwing, I prefer this version, the Disco Dick version. It feels the most light, the most carefree and reminiscent of his circus acrobat past.

    That image of Ocean Master is incredible! I agree with Shag; that should have launched him into a greater spotlight.

    My favorite Superman villains are Metallo and Parasite and I can’t understand why I never have and never will see them in a live action Superman film.

    The best rendition of The Penguin since Burgess Meredith is in the video game BATMAN: ARKHAM CITY. That said, even though I can’t think of any particular Penguin comics that I like, I have always liked the character. Maybe it’s because I had the Super Powers action figure and my heart never let him go. I’ll give Jack Dauer a fist bump for Oswald Cobblepot.

    Vandal Savage bores the crap out of me, but Per Degaton is my kind of immortal villain. The Nazi iconography helps and the time-travel gig seals the deal.

  12. Sean Koury says:

    Hey guys,

    Thanks for the welcome to super-hero blogging. Guess you forgot about Captain Carrot’s Burrow and that I’ve been doing this for a year already? lol Just kidding. Thanks for the Marvel vs DC shoutout, really appreciate it.

    Another fun episode. Now you’ve got me curious about this Nightshade character.

    Pig-Iron next episode! Finally, a REAL reason to listen.

  13. The Nuclear Family by Jim Aparo, gotta love it. Considering how (intentially) ridiculous this team was, the issues which introduced them (from the Baxter Paper series), the scenes of the nuclear holocaust which Rob mentioned is memorably horrific. I still think this team can work, but only in period stories set during the Cold War.

    I’m going to agree with Shag, the difference between Northwind and Nuklon is that Nuklon eventually became a worthwhile character. Northwind never amounted to much of anything, and this is coming from your resident “Hawkman guy.”

    All I can say about OMAC is “I’m OMAC! Evacuate this section! I am going to destroy it!” http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HESSX7xP6hQ/TmkKNJaJeLI/AAAAAAAAAPc/J_Oo2AeqKdA/s1600/jack%2Bkirby.%2Bomac.%2Bpage.%2B002.jpg

    OMAC is crazy, fersure, and I am pretty sure the only Kirby creation which approaches OMAC in insanity is Atlas. And while Atlas did get a revamp by James Robinson, OMAC made it onto Batman: The Brave and The Bold, so he’s got that. Face it, OMAC rocks, and the New 52 OMAC rocked the party that rocks your body. Just because it didn’t sell doesn’t mean it wasn’t fantastic. By the way, Rob, OMAC was not “the first book” of the New 52 “to go down,” insofar as it was part of a group of 8 books cancelled on the same day. You’ll probably complain at me for saying it, but you cannot deny it because it’s a fact.

    I love how the OSS got an entry here. The OSS would often figure into backup strips in DC’s War books, as the lead strips (such as Haunted Tank, Unknown Soldier, and Sgt. Rock) were often a little shorter than full length. Usually they were one-off stories of sabotage or intrigue behind enemy lines in WW2. I don’t know that they had enough strips to fill a full size Showcase, but a mini-Showcase would be perfect.

    My love of The Outsiders is well documented on comments for this series. But of course, lest Siskoid make fun of me, I will leave it at that and move on. At least Jim Aparo handled the art chores here, although Alan Davis would have been appropriate at this point as well.

    Pariah should have been bawling like a little you-know-what in his entry. Although I do like how Shag makes him sound like Shaggy Rogers from Scooby Doo. “Zoinks!”

    The Penguin easily passes the recognition test among non-comics readers. He’s a great character, and the dichotomy of the dapper, well-heeled man who is a viscious crime boss is one which allows itself to be used in any type of Batman story, and be used well. Although, Rob, the Riddler was the first villain on the 1966 Batman series, not The Penguin. The debut episodes were “Hi Diddle Riddle” and “Stuck In The Middle;” the Penguin debuted a week later in the episodes “Fine Feathered Finks” and “The Penguin’s A Jinx.” For what it’s worth, beyond the insanely awesome portrayl by Burgess Meredith, legendary songwriter and singer Paul Williams turned in a wonderful performance as Cobblepott on Batman: The Animated Series.

    Appropriately, we just got casting news on the Penguin for the new Gotham show! You know, the one which Shag didn’t count even though it’s going direct to series. Robin Lord Taylor will play Oswald Cobblepot, a “low-level psychopath for gangster Fish Mooney” who has “the brains of a chess grandmaster and the morals of a jackal,” and who “hides his sadistic lust for power behind an exquisitely polite demeanor.” Hopefully he’ll have an arsenal of assault umbrellas.

    Thanks for the fun episode guys!

  14. Siskoid says:

    Don’t worry Luke, I don’t make fun of Outsiders fans, only the Outsiders themselves. And that gives the Outsiders one up on the Omega Men. I have no use for the Omega Men, but I do have a use for the Outsiders. Just not a very nice use.

  15. Frank says:

    1) I don’t understand why Shag would only recommend the first three volumes of Diana Prince: Wonder Woman when all four are available from InStockTrades at just $10.99 (45% off the suggested retail price!) I have them all (plus a fair few of the original issues) and I recommend them as Bronze Age fun (and a potent time capsule of wackiness) for even casual readers. The tales are mostly self contained adventures of global intrigue that recall Emma Peel and The Bionic Woman more than Greco-Roman myth.

    I’m of the school that places the start of the Bronze Age at 1968, and even got a ways into writing an unpublished article defending the point. Even is you disagree, the last issue in these collections was cover-dated 1973. Oh, and I totally appreciate Shag expressing regret for recommending these over something else later in the podcast. No cookie for you. You could also pick up a few issues after Diana Prince leaves off with Wonder Woman: The Twelve Labors, but I haven’t read my copy yet, so I don’t know if it’s any good.

    2) There’s a scene in High Fidelity where Jack Black’s character calls out John Cusask’s for making a safe, p**** choice on a top five music countdown list. Saga of the Swamp Thing. I wouldn’t say Rob sounds like Kyle Gas (but he does sound kinda like Ira Flatow.) I would like to take this opportunity to defend Tenacious D’s eponymous 2001 debut album as one of the most infectious releases of the aughts, though.

    3) George Pérez does a great job of validating Shag’s criticism of the Dick Giordano studio by inking himself on this cover. I expect that happened because this was made during the brief period of time when Pérez was done with Crisis on Infinite Earths, wrapping up his work for Deluxe Comics, and planning to take a break from interiors for a few years by just doing covers.

    a) Like Rob, I wasn’t that into Cynthia Martin as a kid, but appreciated her much more with age. Besides Star Wars, I remember her most from the Spider-Man story arc “Life in the Mad Dog Ward” and for her co-creation of Poison, who was featured in the successful anthology Marvel Comics Presents. She looks great on Nightshade, a very minor character that I maintain a fondness toward (though mostly just her Charlton incarnation.) Rob Liefeld would later draw her Secret Origins story.

    b) I like the Night-Slayer entry, but never read any of his appearances. For years I’ve confused him with another Doug “Mensch” creation, Night Scourge from Legends of the Dark Knight.

    c) I don’t have a problem with the Nightwing entry, but in retrospect, I’m ambivalent about the concept. The Dick Grayson Robin was arguably one of the top five most internationally famous and important super-heroes of the time, whereas Nightwing is a b-lister at best with little recognition outside of comics. Marv Wolfman turned Dick into one of my all time favorite super-heroes, but he then handicapped Nightwing by making him stay the Cyclops of his faux X-Men instead of the Wolverine he was primed to become. At least Wally West became the Flash, but Dick traded near universal recognizability for a solo series a decade too late where Chuck Dixon treated him as a bourgeois Daredevil given the plotting scraps from his favored son, Tim Drake. Scott McDaniel giddily made Dick a chaste fan of contemporary Christian pop when he should have been dragging his man-nipples across the voluptuous chests of Starfires by the dozen. Nightwing should be the Batman of Neal Adams and Steve Englehart and Carmine Infantino and Bob Haney– the Batman who could smile and fly rocket ships to alien worlds and pull shark repellent out of his utility belt and just be an all around terrific ass-kicking brilliant sex bomb with a custom jet. Instead, he got an instantly dated costume that was poorly designed even by George Pérez’s dubious standards and has been treading water since 1985.

    d) Curt Swan + Karl Kesel = Dave Gibbons, at least here. I think the Silver Age Nightwing and Flamebird is a nifty concept worthy of note that should have ceased to be used after the trademark was transferred to Dick Grayson. That thing from a few years ago by Greg Rucka? Let’s forget that ever happened, and high five the New 52 for helping.

    e) Cheers to Shawn McManus for collecting a full page rate for Nimbus while only having to draw a head, a hand, and pour india ink over the rest of the “figure.”

    f) Nocturna is a cute concept that couldn’t survive the Frank Millerization of Batman. Artist Tom Mandrake pretty clearly swiped her design for the Martian Manhunter villainess Bette Noir, down to the pearl necklace. Surprint: Nocturna DT-HJ-JB. God bless you please.

    g) Northwind is a lesser Golden Eagle and a sub-Falcon symbol of tokenism. He’s the Noble Negro disallowed a drop of human blood pumping through his veins, much less a describable personality. His design is hideous, the only resonantly false note among Infinity Inc., but the awfulness is concealed by subdued coloring. Roy Thomas intended to retcon the numerous deaths of Infinitors leading up to #50, but the Crisis and impending cancellation stayed his hand. The 1980s had no place for so asinine a property as Feithera, and I’m appalled that it didn’t have the decency to be destroyed and take its most famous inhabitant with it in their stead.

    h) Jim Aparo was swell at drawing multitudes of pre-existing DC characters, but his aching inability to pull off “high concepts” like the Nuclear Family proved him to be the Anti-Kirby. Even if this was a thing that you wanted to have done, this was not the way to go about doing that thing.

    i) Excepting the mohawk, Nuklon is a very well designed character. A black skullcap or full head of brunette hair would have completed the symmetry. It would have been forgivable if Nuklon were in any way a punk, but the haircut seemed to be pure pandering to a notion of coolness already past its sell date. He also needed more visually dynamic powers. Like most of Infinity Inc., he was defined by his lack of character definition, though I appreciated him more as the “straight man” strongman in the last days of Gerard Jones’ J.L.A.

    j) To complete this issue’s Infinitor trifecta of cool looking uncool heroes that will lose your money, we have Obsidian. Aside from being the abused kid who was uncomfortably dependent on his long lost sister, he never made much of an impression under Roy Thomas. Like the rest, he felt like a Super Squad inductee– a half-assed “young turk” associated with the JSA as a way to lure new readers to the core team that Thomas was clearly more interested in writing. The gay angle didn’t hit my radar until Gerard Jones started using him, but his being a whiny cutter was much more prominent. It bugged me when Johns and Goyer turned one of DC’s then-rare homocentric heroes into a full blown villain, though the writer that explicitly outed Obsidian, Marc Andreyko, redeemed him somewhat in Manhunter. They should make the New 52 Obsidian the homme fatale of the Earth Two Alan Scott, allowing for a renewed intimate connection to the Green Lantern and a taboo twist for the continuity conscious. That or turn him and Jade into Scott’s estranged/unknown siblings instead of offspring.

    k) While Ocean Master remains “the other Aquaman villain,” I feel like he at least started to be worthwhile within the greater sphere of badness in the Pozner/Hamilton mini-series. He struck me as a goof when he was active as a technology based nogoodnik mimicking Aquaman’s basest powers, but turning to dark sorcery provided him a role beyond backstory to differentiate him from the Fisherman, much less Black Manta. I liked the more exaggerated look of the villain. Orm has also gotten a fair amount of DCU play, battling the JLA as part of Morrison’s first Injustice Gang and taking them on again during Dan Jurgens’ Aquaman run. I don’t particularly care for the New 52 take, as he’s a sissy Namor wannabe now. It’s a more compelling motivation for a human Orm to have to seek out power comparable to his brother’s at any cost, rather than essential being Aquaman as he would have turned out having grown up in Atlantis.

    By the way, the ’86 mini-series isn’t well regarded because it’s wretched. Nice art, some decent threads laid out, but overall an onerous story with a wince-inducing approach to the lead character.

    l) It must have been a chore to try to resolve the conflicts of interpretation with the Olympian Gods, not just within DC proper, but also with their acquisitions from other companies (Marvel Family, Son of Vulcan, etc.) One of the things I hated about Pérez’s Wonder Woman run was his emphasis on updating the Greco-Roman myths instead of Wonder Woman’s own lore. He could draw ornate marble pillars like nobody else, but they couldn’t support the Amazing Amazon as a premise of her own.

    m) Allow me to recommend the OMAC hardcover collection, available for just $13.74 at InStockTrades. I’m not the biggest Kirby booster, and it totally won me over. OMAC was conceived while The King was still at Marvel as a future version of Captain America, but he decided to save the basic idea for later use. The original series is such great fun, and if you haven’t read it, you haven’t read OMAC. He’s one of those concepts that no other creator “gets,” then taints its good name with each misbegotten revision (including hitching it to Kamandi’s Great Disaster.) Also, for me, OMAC isn’t OMAC unless the mohawk is a full foot high, fat sideburn are on the side, and the dude’s pulling a rugged face of Marvin/Bronson/Eastwood caliber.

    n) Looking at the Omega Men entry reminds me that I haven’t read Saga past #1, but I have all the trades sitting on a shelf waiting for me. I hope it’s as good as I hear.

    o) Jerome K. Moore is a pimp, and his drawing of Onyx is so good I want to buy her twelve issue mini-series that doesn’t exist. It would have sold better and been a greater creative accomplishment than Voodoo.

  16. I agree with everything Frank says about Nightwing. And I feel a little hollow inside having faced that truth.

    And Frank, SAGA kicks a lot of ass until about issue #12 when all the energy and unpredictability comes to a screeching halt, coinciding with the characters’ journey coming to a quiet, unremarkable halt.

  17. Frank says:

    p) Orion is clearly auditioning for American Idol here. Do you think he’s doing Bette or Whitney? Hey Joisey Rob, is his mom’s occupation “Worrier?” I’m pleased to say that I was not suckered into the gimmick revolving head Super Powers figure, although I’m sure the ill-considered, overly busy redesign helped. Like most people, I disliked Orion until I read Kirby’s New Gods, where I finally saw the full power and brutality of the character. That remains the only book where Orion had bite to go with his endless barking, though the Simonson series was pretty good.

    q) The only place I knew DC’s O.S.S. from is the pages of early Suicide Squad. They were the antagonists of the team-up special with the Doom Patrol, and there was a big reveal regarding Control at the end. It’s a good looking if very ’70s profile image, the polar opposite of an OHOTMU entry. I know Ric Estrada mostly from Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter, where he brought some much needed visual consistency.

    r) I think everything about The Outsider is cool except for the Alfred Pennyworth part. Between the Parasite and Killer Croc, I seem to have had a childhood predilection toward beefcake villains with severe skin conditions shown off by a costume consisting solely of briefs. The Michael Desai Outsider was one of the few good things to come out of Flashpoint, so I hope he turns up again once Forever Evil is resolved, preferably with the full blown psoriasis so I can tell him apart from Metamorpho.

    s) If Infinity Incorporated are the well dressed but milquetoast WASPs of ’80s DC teams, and Justice League Detroit is the somewhat garish, incredulously multicultural Saved by the Bell squad, the Outsiders are the Guidos. Unnatural skin tones, chach collars, plunging necklines, bad hair, and the sartorial taste of bowlers. Nobody says much about the inoffensive Infinitors, but the Outsiders are so loud and ugly that they refuse to be ignored. Also unlike the Infinitors, most of the Outsiders could and sometimes did carry themselves as soloists, or at least were reasonable insertions into other teams. It was only as a collective that they were brain-meltingly offensive, like casting Joe Pesci, Dom DeLuise, Andrew Dice Clay, Tony Danza, Rodney Dangerfield, Roberto Benigni and The Situation in a comedy. At least they’re clearly not a prefabricated lot designed to work as one piece, but square pegs that someone vomited up a whole bag of Skittles upon.

    As with the house ads of the time, the Hollywood color hold is meant to emphasize the break from Batman and how the Outsiders were going to stand on their own. Or not, as it turned out. I’ll also point out that if you read the final story with the team under Batman, he obviously manipulated the team toward that end. The only question regards his motivation for doing so.

    Finally, Markovia. Markovia, Markovia, Markovia. Mike Barr wanted his own Latveria so bad it must have hurt. It was all about Markovia.

    t) The Pakrat entry is so much better than it probably deserves to be. I only know Pakrat as the one that isn’t a Hukka. Was he featured in Scholastic’s Dynamite magazine?

    u) Forbidden Island appeared in, like, one minor story.

    v) The Parasite has been working in animation since Superman:TAS, but comics can’t seem to figure him out. I liked Alex Ross’ version, though.

    w) Pariah is one of George Pérez’s better character designs, but one of his worst co-creations. He’s like the Silver Surfer if he’d stayed Norrin Radd and also had been castrated with a wooden spoon while soaking in grain alcohol.

    x) No matter how many times he thinks he says “patchwork,” all I hear Joisey Rob talking about is “Patrick Man.” Did Brett Easton Ellis write Swamp Thing? Is there a super-hero out there who can channel any given Patrick Swayze character (obviously a Legionnaire?)

    y) Keith Giffen just kind of forgot how to draw super-heroes for half a decade there, which is why it was best that he stuck with Ambush Bug and non-costumed characters for a while. Giffen wrote and drew the Peacemaker strip in Comics Cavalcade/Blockbuster Weekly, DC’s aborted precursor to Action Comics Weekly that was to reintroduce the Charlton Action Heroes. There was an article on it in Comic Book Artist #9 that I cribbed for a …nurgh… post back in 2009 where I included links to 23 of Giffen’s unused pages. Kupperberg “borrowed” the (stupid) idea of a crazy Peacemaker with a helmet that talked to him from Giffen (who himself had already used it in a Menthor script for Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R Agents.

    Even in the ’60s, Peacemaker was ultraviolent, smiling as he immolated people. The difference was that in the old stories, Peacemaker was the protagonist in an ideologically skewed series, which Alan Moore and his imitators played upon with a condemnatory slant. I get Moore wanting the rights he was promised for the Watchmen, but it was seriously just a Charlton Elseworlds with only slightly exaggerated versions of the characters as previously written. Ozymandias was the only one that truly went far enough afield to belong to Moore. Well, and I guess Dr. Manhattan owed as much to Dr. Solar as Captain Atom.

    People have an inflated sense of Charlton’s place in super-hero comics, where what they really were was cult favorites. Companies like Dell and Archie had major marketing muscle, so when their attempts at super-heroes failed, it was due to pure lack of interest from the buying public. Charlton had much more interesting heroes, but they were a penny ante publisher, making most of their money off teenybopper magazines. They only printed comics to keep the presses running, and had a shoddy, unreliable distribution network to get them to market. There were only ever six original, professional Peacemaker stories, seven Questions, eleven Ted Kord Blue Beetles, six Nightshades, and eleven Thunderbolts. Captain Atom is trickier to pin down, since his stories kept getting reprinted, but I think there were about twenty original ones from Charlton. Those aren’t individual issues either, as Nightshade only appeared in Captain Atom books, Blue Beetle was initially Captain Atom’s back-up strip, and the Question was Blue Beetle’s. I believe all but the Peter Cannons were reprinted in a scant two Archive Editions.

    (:> __) The Penguin makes for a sucky, much victimized action figure, but Burgess Meredith was the stuff on the TV show. Penguin was unique as an early Batman villain by virtue of being a sane murderer, especially hardcore for his company. I was chubby phobic as a kid, but I support fat characters as an adult, and guys like the Kingpin prove that it can be made to work for readers of all ages. Penguin just needs a better tailored suit so he doesn’t look like he swallowed a wrecking ball, and stronger stories that play to his strengths. Lay off the fowl puns, keep the tricked out umbrellas– that sort of thing. Oh, and to quote my own tweet, what does it say about our cultural body dysmorphic disorder that we require a sexy thin young Penguin for the new Gotham TV show? Lena Dunham, save our DCU!

    卐) I’ve always said “Purr” Degaton, and assumed “Per” was some Teutonic variation on “The.” It turns out Per is a Scandinavian name, pronounced like “Pear,” but with that bit of Swede lilt. What’s not to love about James Cagney as a time traveling Nazi who accessories his uniform with his ginger hair? He’s no Vandal Savage though, Drunkula. Again, is Patrick-Man related to the Toodie-Man from the Bad Mamma Jammas theme song?

    z) The Persuader is the coolest member of the Fatal Five, and they even tried to steal him for 21st century stories for a while there. Dull entry art, though.

    Ω) The anatomy of Sensor Girl on that Legion cover is a hot mess.

    I corresponded with William Messner-Loebs years back, and he confirmed that there was some sort of contractual obligation between DC Comics and the William Moulton Marston estate that required a certain number of Wonder Woman comics be published. I assume that’s the reason The Legend of Wonder Woman was created as a stopgap between volumes. My understanding is that DC now 100% owns Wonder Woman without any such weird stipulations. I’ve never been able to will myself to read that mini-series.

    4) I’ve tried to make The Aquaman Shrine’s podcast comments section happen from time to time, but it usually feels like I floated my thoughts unheard into the Marianas Trench. If I ever tried one of these things, I’d set up a WordPress account.

    The coloring on Nathaniel Dusk was gross. Maybe Rob was thinking about Detectives, Inc.: A Terror of Dying Dreams? If you google Don McGregor, a picture of Dwayne McDuffie pops up. I met McDuffie after the same panel, and he remains the single most gracious, interested comic creator I’ve ever met. He’s much missed.

    There have been successful anthology titles in recent years, including Dark Horse Presents and Shonen Jump. The inability of the big two super-hero publishers to utilize the format (which surely has nothing to do with their history of using them as a dumping ground for neophytes and wash-ups for irrelevant inventory stories) isn’t necessarily indicative of the inviability of such a publication.

    Anthony Durso is right: someone should crunch the numbers on how many issues worth of Who’s Who were wasted on New Gods, Omegans, and Ataritarians. I’m also not a fan of Devito’s Penguin.

    If the New 52 Legion are from Earth 2’s future, explain why Legion Lost were on Earth 1?

  18. Martin Gray says:

    I’m with Sphinx McGoo, the Omega Men felt very much like the Inhumans when they first popped up in Green Lantern, but I never liked them much.

    How come Pariah has puffy sleeves and Jericho has puffy sleeves and they’re both seven kinds o’shite, whereas Firestorm has puffy sleeves and is awesome? Must be a George Perez thing.

    Oh Shag, how could you think I would ever pick on you? Eejit.

  19. Anj says:

    In an odd case of cosmic karma Frank, I recently reread the Doom Patrol/Suicide Squad Special in preparation for a post on my site. And the post deals with a character we will see in the next issue of Who’s Who.

    It is a shame that the Persuader got such a lackluster entry. I don’t know if I can say he is the definitive coolest member of the Fatal Five but I think we can all agree that Tharok is the lamest.

  20. Isn’t being the “coolest member of the Fatal Five” akin to being the “most popular guy in the A-V Club?”

  21. Anj says:

    Isn’t being the “coolest member of the Fatal Five” akin to being the “most popular guy in the A-V Club?”

    I dare you to say that to Validus.

  22. Validus is fine for a big bruiser character (did DCUC ever do a Build-A-Figure of him? He’d be perfect for that!), but as I have never had much of an interest in the Legion (and believe me, I have tried), the Fatal Five will always be an afterthought for me.

    It’s a personal bias; I will argue who is the coolest member of the Masters Of Disaster (clearly New Wave, because she’s just bananas), but can’t work up much of interest in the Fatal Five.

    Given the parameters of the team, Persuader is probably the coolest member. His axe reminds me of the “mono-sabre” from the TSR Buck Rogers RPG, which is honed to an edge one molecule wide and can similar cut trough anything. Tharok reminds me of the cyborg guy who fought the Spider-Friends and X-Men in that one episode of Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends.

  23. @Frank: “People have an inflated sense of Charlton’s place in super-hero comics, where what they really were was cult favorites.”

    I think the Charlton characters benefit most from having fans who were able to use them in high profile ways which helped build their brands for modern fans. Beyond the whole Watchmen thing, I am specifically referring to the use of Captain Atom and (especially) The Question on the Justice League Unlimited cartoon.

    I’ve always attributed the return of the Sage Question and then the transition to the Montoya Question directly to the high profile use of The Question on JLU. I mean, to the point that the new Question is a character who debuted on Batman: TAS. That seems a bit on the nose to me.

    I don’t know if that is an accurate theory or not, but I tend to agree with your assessment. Nevermind the fact that the only Charltons I buy are either their oddball horror/mystery books (Haunted, Many Ghosts Of Doctor Graves, etc.) and wildly scattered war comics (the Fightin’ quadrilogy, mostly), so my exposure to Charlton is limited at best.

  24. @Luke – Validus was, indeed, one of the build-a-figures from DC Universe Classics. He was part of Wave 15 that included Martian Manhunter, Jemm of Saturn, Starman (Ted and Jack variants), Raven, OMAC, Golden Pharaoh and the Sinestro Corps Batman. I took the time to write all of those characters because as you’ll note not one of them is part of the Legion.

  25. Phylemon says:

    First of all: I love, love, love Gorgeous George Perez, but I don’t love this cover. There is so much empty space! Also, I guess I’m more troubled by the lack of internal logic than others. What are Per Degaton and Orion running on? What are the OSS or Persuader standing on? It just throws me off. I miss Mister Freeze’s ice bridges.

    The Night Slayer art is too small, but other than that, I like it.

    I haven’t read my Outsider comics, but I always thought the themed villain teams like The Nuclear Family looked cool, but no clue if the stories are readable or not.

    I am a fan of just about any version of OMAC. It was hands down my favorite of the New 52 and I was heartbroken when it was cancelled.

    Just like the Outsiders, I’ve never read The Omega Men, but those are some beautiful designs.

    Y’all were overly harsh about The Outsider. If we didn’t allow goofy story lines, there would have been no Silver Age, and that would be a dark world indeed.

    I love Giffen’s art on Peacemaker. I would read his take on the character.

    Rob, if you are interested in the “Where were you on the night Batman was killed?” Storyline, it is reprinted in full in the TPB The Strange Deaths of Batman. I’m sure that In-Stock Trades has a good price on it.

    Shag, I appreciate your efforts to discover my secret identity, but, alas, I am not Richard Grayson. keep up the detective work though.

    By the way, Shag, My gut instinct was to apologize for attacking you on the pro-nun-ciation thing, but then I realized that my attacks might give you a sense of what poor Jericho and the Forever People have to deal with from you every month.

  26. I hate to say it, but this is one of my least favorite issues! There are just too many characters here that I don’t care about. I call it the NOPE issue…!

    First, I think the cover is badly laid out. I agree with the other guys who don’t like Orion and Per Degaton running on air (they aren’t The Trickster, George!). Plus, the background characters are just TOO SMALL!! And I agree with Shagg about the dog on The Penguin’s umbrella! He doesn’t belong there. This cover should have been more of an action shot of Penguin vs Nightwing, with the better characters (ie no Omega Men or Infinity Inkers) more in the background. As it is it’s just….meh. Nope.

    I guess I’m in the minority of people who *liked* Nightshade’s purple and black costume. This classic one is okay, but I liked the body stocking, too.

    Nightwing-Dick Grayson-Robin has always been one of my favorite characters, but I agree with Rob that the drawing is a tad dull. And is it just me, or is Robin drawn too small in relation to Batman? He doesn’t look like he would be 12 or so, but at that height he should be!

    I never liked either Infinity Inc OR The Outsiders much, so after Nightwing I have to go seven pages before we get another character I really care about: Ocean Master. (Although I do agree that Obsidian is artistically cool. Anybody notice that his costume is patterned very closely after Hal Jordan’s?)

    Ocean Master’s page by Craig Hamilton is gorgeous and is by far the best pic in the book.

    Nobody mentioned that OSS was in a full issue of SHOWCASE (#104) besides being back-ups in GI COMBAT. That’s the only issue of their adventures I ever read, but I *really* liked it.

    I always liked the Parasite, but I never knew if that look was him or was a costume. I thought it was him but then why does he have a blue stripe down his chest? If it’s a costume, why would he choose to wear such an ugly thing? It it was him, why would he choose to just wear swim trunks? Just like Ben Grimm and Namor, would he really go around all the time in just his underwear? Kinda weird.

    The Penguin is well done by Howard Bender and Bill Wray. Very “Super Powers” ish; in fact, that Batman in the surprint is a JLGL stock art pose, isn’t it? I had one of those Penguin MEGO dolls as a kid, and Burgess Meredith was my 2nd favorite TV villain after Frank Gorshin. (I was yelling at the computer when Rob said Penguin was the first TV villain, haha! How could he have forgotten Jill St. John!?!)

    Per Degaton is a one-trick pony of the worst kind. I am totally NOT a fan of “time paradox stories which in the end actually never happened” and he is featured in that type of story EVERY TIME. Sorry, nope.

    The Persuader deserved a better page than this. He’s one of the most action-oriented villains the Legion has, and Ron Wilson has him just standing there! Hell, I could have done a better job that this!! PLUS, the characters in the surprint aren’t inked right!! Nope!

    That’s enough of the N-O-P “nope” issue. Onwards to Phantom Girl!

  27. Siskoid says:

    “someone should crunch the numbers on how many issues worth of Who’s Who were wasted on New Gods, Omegans, and Ataritarians.”

    CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

    New Gods: 33
    Omega Men: 16
    Atari Force: 10

    Free of any NG-OM-AF content: Volumes 4, 19, 21, 24

    Diclaimers: I did not double-check these figures. The New Gods include Mister Miracle and Forever People material, but not Jimmy Olsen Fourth World material, since that’s basically limited to Guardian and the Newsboy Legion, which both originated long before. For the Omega Men, I counted all the Vegan system nonsense.

    But wait! It doesn’t actually end there, does it? There were updates!

    The ’87 Update adds 5 pages of New Gods.
    The ’88 Update adds 3 pages of New Gods.
    Who’s Who in the Legion adds 3 pages of New Gods.
    The 1990 “loose leaf” version of Who’s Who adds 28 pages of New Gods (this time I did count Jimmy Olsen Fourth World stuff, specifically Intergang and Cadmus Project; I also counted the DeSaad corrected reprint; obviously, those 28 pages are really sheets, and so could be counted as 56 pages, but I haven’t.)
    The ’93 update doesn’t add any pages to any of the franchises.

    So official Who’s Who releases final tally:
    New Gods: 72
    Omega Men: 16
    Atari Force: 10

    Make of that what you will.

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