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Forever Evil & Listener Feedback – FIRE & WATER #70

Firestorm and Aquaman: The Fire and Water Podcast

The 70th episode of THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST is now available for your listening pleasure! THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST is the official podcast of FIRESTORM FAN and THE AQUAMAN SHRINE.

Rob and Shag kick off this episode chatting about Forever Evil! The remainder of the show is dedicated to you…yes, you the listener! We compiled feedback from several recent episodes and then did our best to scale Mt. Feedback! The listeners of this show (affectionately called “Nuclear Subs”) compose the single greatest podcast listening community on the planet! Sit back, relax, and enjoy your episode!

You can find the 70th episode of THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST on iTunes. While you’re there, please drop us a review on the iTunes page. Every comment helps! Alternatively, you may download the podcast by right-clicking here, choosing “Save Target/Link As”, and selecting a location on your computer to save the file (53 MB).

As always, thanks to my co-host Rob Kelly, Sea King of THE AQUAMAN SHRINE, for doing all the post-production on these episodes! Opening theme, “That Time is Now,” by Michael Kohler. Special thanks to Daniel Adams and Ashton Burge with their band The Bad Mamma Jammas for our fantastic original closing theme! This episode brought to you in part by!

Have a question or comment? Looking for more great content?

Check out this Forever Evil #3 variant cover by Ethan Van Sciver featuring our favorite Nuclear Man! Click to enlarge!

Forever Evil #3 variant cover by Ethan Van Sciver featuring Firestorm

Congrats to the latest STEAM AWARD winner, Luke Daab! Below you’ll find his puppy, FIRESTRORY!! Keep up with Luke on his website at

Firestrory by Luke Daab

Support Firestorm and Aquaman! Fan the Flame and Ride the Wave!

Related Posts with Thumbnails


  1. Siskoid says:

    Doctor Who/Star Trek – It probably works better as a trade, but month to month, it was slow and talky, and I thought it missed the mark. The Kirk/Tom Baker chapter was the only highlight for me. If the story had been more like this and less about stretching things out to 8 issues or whatever, it would have been a big hit. Instead, the story is about briefings. Lots and lots of briefings.

    Night of the Doctor – Soooooooooooooooo awesome. Everybody on the Web is calling for a McGann “prequel” series. He only canonized the audio companions, right? Poor Fitz, Compassion, Sam, Anji et al.

    Forever Evil… … … … …

    Yeah, that’s all I have to say about it.

  2. Anj says:

    Since its inception, the New 52 DCU has been a dark and dreary place. It is as if the entire line now has to be edgy, grim, and gritty.

    Now I give DC some respect. They tried to be very varied with the reboot. War books, westerns, sci-fi/horror. They tried.

    But now the whole place is cut from one cloth … the darker and more violent and less inspirational, the better.

    And Forever Evil is all that in a nutshell. There are no heroes. We are rooting for villains because there are worse villains. “Evil is Relative.” Yeah. But it is still evil.

    This is a book where we have a one page slow motion shot of a mouse having its neck broken in a mousetrap. It is a company where DC has a ‘5.2 reasons why villains are cooler than heroes’ article on their website. It is a company where Geoff Johns’ says villains have redeeming properties and name-checks Luthor – someone who has killed indiscriminately throughout the last 2 years.

    Yeah. I’m not enjoying Forever Evil or this DCU much right now.

    Now don’t get me wrong. I like anti-heroes and dark stuff too. I read Fatale, Conan, Satellite Sam, etc. And I wouldn’t mind some DC dark books like Suicide Squad.

    But I want my heroes to be heroes and applauded for being heroes. And that is rare/nonexistent in the DCU right now.

  3. Siskoid says:

    Finding your joy: You’ve created a positive meme in this. My own joy is extremely broad, which is good, and includes vintage comics (for point and laugh purposes) and contemporary indie comics.

    Nice Canada: We have the same number of jerks per capita, I assure you. We’re probably nicer to non-Canadians, which is how such rumors start.

    Batman and Doom Patrol: Brave and the Bold #172. But it’s the so-called “New” Doom Patrol, so I think Rob’s suggestion still stands. Do track down #7 of the TV tie-in B&B series for the classic team.

    Big Bang Theory is something I find unwatchable because it’s not made for geeks, but for people who know geeks. Anyway, that’s what I tell people who ask me if I watch it because obviously. Any notion that I am anything like “Sheldon” only exists in the minds of people who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

    Rob’s Amazing Blog of DC Comics: You know what the magazine lay-outs remind me of? Those of 1st edition DC Heroes products. Probably not a coincidence.

    And now I’m at the bloopers… fun show guys, as usual.

  4. Personally, I’m enjoying myself, sitting here in the sun and loving Forever Evil and enjoying all of the DC books I am reading. Sorry that you folks are not liking it, but you’re not going to drag me down with negativity. Maybe I’m the weirdo, but the idea of a team of Lex Luthor, Bizarro, Captain Cold, and Black Manta sounds freaking cool as hell.

    Flash kicks it hard each and every month. So does Wonder Woman, as the book is moving into intriguing new ground. The Phantom Stranger is like a Vertigo book set in the proper DCU. Larfleeze is a laugh riot each and every issue, and it looks gorgeous. And it’s not New 52, but Federal Bureau of Physics (formerly COLLIDER) is a brilliant Vertigo science fiction book, about the team of G-Men who investigate “reality storms” where the laws of physics cease to apply.

    Night Of The Doctor was pretty cool for a short, as I have actually seen the TV movie. Still, have to say Ultraman remains cooler than Doctor Who.

  5. I love Shag’s comment: “I feel like I went away and the DC Universe is messy.” The thing is, I don’t feel like I went anywhere; the mess came in on my watch, like a devastating tornado that leveled my hometown.

    Actually, it’s more like the ’80s movie WEIRD SCIENCE. The New 52 came in like a sexy, vaguely-British underwear model, and quickly ran amok, threatening my parents at gunpoint, turning my brother into a giant frog-like pile of crap, and inviting a bunch of strangers and bullies to a party I never asked for and that trashes my house. And when I seem less than appreciative about having my life hijacked, Lisa/DC decides I’m not being challenged enough and throws in a horde of homicidal, slightly-monstrous biker freaks to ridicule me personally in front of my peers who have become hostages. Well, I guess this is the point where I stand up for myself and say, “You can leave in peace… or you can stay and die.” I’m dropping DC until they clean up this mess and get the ballistic missile out of my bedroom.

    Shag, I also agree with your concern over Firestorm being fueled by the “spark of creation”. That seems perfectly appropriate if Firestorm was the Herald of Galactus, but not for a character who, despite his vast powers, has always felt closer to street-level than cosmic.

    Rob, I don’t even think the Batman in the Nolan movies lasted that long (a year and a half). I think the gap between BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT was a couple months at most, which would make his career as Batman roughly the length of a football season.

  6. Siskoid says:

    Fight the power, Luke! Don’t let anyone drag you away from something you enjoy.

    And as a big fan of villain books in the past – Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Action starring Luthor, Superior Foes of Spider-Man, etc. – for it’s about the line’s current homogeneity (where it’s entirely too dark even when it doesn’t need to be) and event fatigue (all this villain stuff ties into these huge hyped events I can’t muster any enthusiasm for). So I’m not against the concept, but in smaller doses. Crossover events are big doses no matter how I look at them.

    So the DC books I’m still enjoying are dark because that feels natural to the stories being told, not because this filter was imposed on a lighter character – Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Wonder Woman as crazy dark myth, All Star Western, Green Arrow and so on. World’s Finest and Vibe are just about the only books I could remotely call light-hearted that I’m reading from DC at this moment.

  7. Tim Wallace says:

    I loves me some Doctor Who…even strayed off topic and did a few posts on my blog, with (shameless plug) another going up on 11/20! “Night of the Doctor” felt to me like that little taste, that free sample, the dealers of TV and Film give you to get you hooked and coming back for more. It worked…I always liked the TV movie, and the audios with McGann have been great, but now I want to see more of him on screen!

    As far as “Forever Evil” and the New 52 in general, I’m with Count Drunkula (that “Weird Science” reference is GENIUS!) I’ve been a pretty diehard DC guy all my life, and still was all the way through “Flashpoint”. When the New 52 launched I picked up the first issues of about 45 of the titles…by issue #3 I was down to about 20-25, and now there are less than 10 DC books I read regularly. I got excited about “Trinity War”, “Forever Evil” and “Villains Month”…like Siskoid, I’ve had fun with books like “Suicide Squad” and “Secret Six”, and I usually enjoy Crime Syndicate appearances, but lately…it’s not the same and my reading of the newer stuff is drying up quicker than Aquaman in the Sahara! What’s a fan to do? Find my comic joy…my comfort food…and that’s where I’ve found myself, re-reading old adventures in trades and back issues (just bought volume one of “The Phantom the Complete Series: the Charlton Years”, and reread DC’s 1987 Cary Bates/Gene Colan series “Silverblade”), and discovering new favorites like…Firestorm…got to admit, when I first started listening I wasnt a big fan but now…I’m a matchhead, and proud of it!

    And Shag, if you reconsider the DC Classic idea, please tag me in! I’d love to talk about Blue Beetle, Blue Devil, All Star Squadron…heck, the list is endless!

  8. Frank says:

    My comments on the last three episodes are like a big ball of Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey… stuff.

  9. I got my nephew a Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey ball for Christmas.

  10. Rob says that Geoff Johns bringing back Barry Allen is the same as making Firestorm the spark of creation and stripping Captain Cold of his powers. Because Geoff Johns didn’t write the Wally West Flash for 5 years, and then the Barry Allen Flash for only a year, right? Everyone seems to forget that the guy the Internet has decided “hates Wally West” was one of the longest tenured writers on his book. For that comment to make sense, in Forever Evil #3, Johns would have to have brought Wally back. THAT would have cracked the Internet in half.

    Rob also put over George Clooney as Batman. Riiiight. That’s why they make 31 flavors, I suppose.

    Concepts blown up 6 months in — best example of this is the Illuminati over at Marvel. Great concept, great cast of characters (Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Namor, Black Bolt, Charles Xavier, Doctor Strange), lots of potential for all sorts of stories, but all Bendis can think of to do with them is break them up. What a WASTE.

    Thanks for the show, guys.

  11. rob! says:

    Rob also put over George Clooney as Batman. Riiiight. That’s why they make 31 flavors, I suppose.

    I thought Clooney was a perfectly fine Batman, but its hard to tell as he was buried in pile of dung that was Batman & Robin. But I think everyone can agree(?), Clooney has done fine, subtle work in other movies, so there’s no reason to think that if he had been handed a Batman movie that wasn’t an affront to God he would have been thought of as a pretty decent Dark Knight Detective.

  12. I disagree with that statement pretty much whole cloth, because Clooney approached the role like a joke and thus is a joke. The whole “I made Batman gay” angle is infuriating and ridiculous. But as Andy Leyland likes to say “This is not a Batman podcast,” so let’s just move on.

    I felt I was in a unique position in the Earth-2 Aquaman debacle because I have never read any of the stores in question, so I simply had fun listening to both sides of the argument. I was going through an incredibly rough personal situation (like, one that if things had worked out differently, my entire life would be different in a very, very bad way) at the time, so hearing geeks argue really helped me forget about it for a little while. I told Shag this on an email a while back but I wanted to put it out there for everyone to know. So thank you for that fellas.

  13. BlUsKrEEm says:

    Find your joy story time for me today:
    When I was a kid the first comics I ever bought were !mpact comics “The Fly.” This eventualy lead me to buy “Mighty Crusaders,” “The Comet” and spiralled out to make me the nerd I am today. When I found out Archie had rebooted the Red Circle line a while back I huredy picked through the back issue bins and added a subscription to my stack. It was wonderful. I’ve gotten a bad case of grim-dark-itus with a touch of event fatigue over the last few years and the tone and feel of the New Crusaders has been a breath of fresh air. I know the comic probably aimed at the 30 something market but I don’t care. It’s great. Sadly my shop stopped selling Archie comics (and thus Red Circle comics) last month. Luckily today (Black friday) I noticed Archie comics is having a 30% sale. Not only am I getting my happy book back but I picked up a subscription tto the spin off for the Shield and the Fox. Merry Christamas to me!


  14. Benton Grey says:

    Thanks again for reading my ramblings, gents! This was an interesting show. I’m not reading any of the Forever Evil books. DC has so successfully torpedoed the very slim hopes I had for the New 52 that, as I’ve mentioned before, I’m only hanging on with Aquaman. I’m actually pretty excited to see what Jeff Parker has in store for us in the Sea King’s coming adventures. This Forever Evil storyline sounds interesting, but I I’ve really begun to feel like DC is spending too much time tearing their world apart, both literally and metaphorically. The scale of the calamities that strike this universe is staggering, but even worse, the heroes seem to rarely actually prevent them. Perhaps I’m over-thinking these stories, but I can’t help but think about how utterly hellish it must be to live in the DCU at this point. On the metaphoric level, as Rob mentioned, the writers do really seem intent to leave no true status quo. There’s a constant, frantic pace of change in these stories, which, while sometimes entertaining, does wear thin after awhile. I don’t’ want static books, but I wouldn’t mind the chance to see a team or a hero and his supporting cast maintain their relationships long enough to actually develop a bit.

    Well, I seem to have wandered into somewhat negative territory here, and that was not really my intention. Anyway, I enjoyed hearing about this storyline, and I’m glad to hear, for Shag’s sake, that Firestorm seems to be a key player. Speaking of which:

    In response to my listing the comics I like to read in public, Shag zeroed in on my omission of Firestorm! What a terrible oversight. Sorry Shag, I’m sad to admit that I don’t own any Firestorm comics…yet! Your love for and devotion to the character, combined with the really interesting retro reviews y’all have done, have piqued my interest in the Nuclear Man. Look for this particular lit. professor to add some of Firestorm’s adventures to his collection soon.

    In regards to the late and truly lamented Sub Diego run of Aquaman, I don’t meant to disparage the Sword of Atlantis series, even though I sing the praises of the previous book. While I was quite unhappy with Vol. 4’s cancellation, that does not invalidate the Sword of Atlantis run that came afterward. It’s a true shame that the destruction of the one was necessary for the creation of the other, much like Ray Palmer and Ryan Choi, and while that did engender a good deal of resentment in my heart at first, much like like the aforementioned shrinking super-hero switch-up, I eventually grew to love that which replaced the original. The Sword of Atlantis was a really good book, but I would have greatly preferred that the Sub Diego run had been able to finish on its own terms before Busiek, one of my favorite writers, explored his take on Aquaman. I love a lot of the elements he brought out, though. I really enjoyed the idea of a barbaric, savage underwater world, though the main hero was admittedly a very poor replacement for Aquaman. The setting and the ideas proved far grander than the execution, methinks. In fact, while I really love the ideas that Busiek broached, I think that Tad Williams run at the end of the series was, in many ways, even better. It’s a shame they didn’t allow him to bring Arthur back.

    All of this just goes to prove something I’ve often said. Aquaman’s greatest foe is neither Ocean Master, nor Black Manta. It’s the powers that be at DC Comics.

    Frank, don’t be silly, Shag’s Chaotic Good at best.

    I’ve got to agree with Luke on the George Clooney thing, Rob. First Lord of the Rings, now affirmations of Bruce Smarm? I’m losing even more respect for you! (And to be fair, I didn’t think that was possible after you too philistines trashed the last great literary work of the 20th Century.) Clooney has one speed, and it’s smug. Neither Bruce Wayne nor Batman really do smug all that well.

    Luke, I’m glad you’re enjoying the New 52, but I’m sorry that you’re a soulless husk. 😛 Ha, seriously though, if you enjoy it, good for you.

  15. Benton Grey says:


    What really breaks my heart about the end of the Sub Diego run is that they had JUST, and I mean JUST brought Aquaman back to a good place. He was dressed in the classic costume, he was at peace, Mera was back in his life, and he was set to begin his career as an adventurer and hero again. For some reason DC felt the need to go from there to squid, then dead. What a waste.

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