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Justice League 3000, Animation, Listener Feedback – FIRE & WATER #77

Firestorm and Aquaman: The Fire and Water PodcastThe 77th episode of THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST is now available for your listening pleasure! THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST is the official podcast of FIRESTORM FAN and THE AQUAMAN SHRINE.

This episode Shag and Rob discuss Justice League 3000, including why you should be buying it and speculation on where it’s going. Next, a brief chat about current and upcoming DC animation releases. Finally, the show wraps up with a healthy dose of your Listener Feedback!

You can find the 77th episode of THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST on iTunes. While you’re there, please drop us a review on the iTunes page. Every comment helps! Alternatively, you may download the podcast by right-clicking here, choosing “Save Target/Link As”, and selecting a location on your computer to save the file (38 MB).

As always, thanks to my co-host Rob Kelly, Sea King of THE AQUAMAN SHRINE, for doing all the post-production on these episodes! Opening theme, “That Time is Now,” by Michael Kohler. Special thanks to Daniel Adams and Ashton Burge with their band The Bad Mamma Jammas for our fantastic original closing theme! This episode brought to you in part by InStockTrades.com!

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12 Comments

  1. Thanks for the (attempted) shout out! :-)

    “Seigi no nakama” IS Japanese for “Friends of Justice,” so you got that part right.
    It’s pronounced say-ge (hard g like in “gosh”) similar to the Russian name Sergei only different.

    I won’t be picking up JLA 3000 for three reasons. 1) I’m not a fan of Keith Giffen’s writing; 2) there is no Aquaman; and 3) I’m boycotting any future scenario that isn’t the Legion. I do hope you’re right and they turn out to be connected to the Legion, though. Keep us updated!

  2. Sean Koury says:

    Oh geez, now I have ANOTHER title I want to check out. Thanks, Shag. (sarcasm)

  3. Kyle Benning says:

    The 20′s, that must be nice. We’re negative 10 degrees this morning with blowing winds giving us a negative 30 windchill. I’m ready to be done with this winter thing now.

    JL 3000, I was really interested in this series when they solicited it with Kevin Maguire on art. I thought DC had finally taken note of fan response and given us what we wanted, a fun super hero comic book. They assembled the same creative team that helmed the Post Crisis & Legends Justice League Launch, which was one of the most humorous and fun superhero comics ever. And then the other shoe dropped….and before issue #1 even hit stands, they scrapped the concept and rehashed it, dropping Maguire because they needed “an artist more fitted to convey the darker tone of the book,” and with that I lost all interest. I don’t need to read a book where “Superman is a dick.” He’s a cold jerk in every New 52 Universe book. Call me lame, but I really miss the days when Superman and Batman were friends and got along. Superman and Batman have been arguing for 20 years now, the “fresh new take” on their dynamic at this point would actually be making them friends again. In a world and country where 2 people from different backgrounds can’t agree on anything it seems, it’d be nice if for 5 minutes I could read a $4 comic book where 2 heroes that have very different backgrounds get along and are friends who unite on good terms to deal out some freedom and justice for all. Maybe I’m alone in that sentiment.

    One thing I’ve always enjoyed about the Legion is it’s innocence. Throughout the years, for the most part, it’s always remained a fun book, where the Super Heroes inspire you. If this is the new Legion book, I’m sad to see it so dark in tone. Not every comic has to be genre bending and earth shattering with loads of attitude and a superhero team that breaks all the rules. We live in a very jaded world, in the past before comics became “mainstream” they were a gateway to a better world, where man could fly and at the end of the day everything was all hunky dory. Where is that escapism now? Almost every single DC New 52 book has angsty superheroes who don’t get along and have a jaded view on the world. Remember when comics were primarily read by kids? Do we really want 8 year old kids reading comics and being “inspired” to have a jaded pessimistic view of a dark dark world? That’s a little young to be jaded. So what, we point them to the 4 “all-ages” books DC puts out that artwise look very simple and “kiddie.” When we were growing up we could read comics suitable for our age that were drawn by the greatest artists in the industry and written by top guys. Those books don’t exist these days. And sure, there were still those more adult centered titles starring superheroes, like Green Lantern/Green Arrow by O’Neil and Adams, but those were exceptions, not the standard. There were still mainstream books geared toward the 8-15 year old kid that were (are) still enjoyable by 40 year old comic readers. You could always use the argument, “well all that stuff is still out there, go enjoy that.” But the fact is, that stuff isn’t out there. DC’s Reprint program is awful. The 90′s Superboy series was great, and the perfect fit for what I’m talking about for an all ages book, and not a single story arc has been collected or reprinted. The same goes for the fantastic Peter David and Todd Nauck Young Justice series.

    Wow, that rant got a lot longer than I originally intended, but the gist of it is that like Russell, I won’t be picking up JL 3000.

    Another great episode, fan the flame and ride the wave!

  4. Anj says:

    Great show!

    I have also shied away from JLA 3K. It sounded like more of the same from the main DCU, angry and dark. And somewhere along the way Giffen said this was *not* a Legion book. He even said something like ‘people looking for a mission to Braal should look elsewhere’. So the name drops of Persuader and ‘The Five’ is interesting. Don’t think you have convinced me to buy yet. But hope to hear more from you.

    I love the ‘how I read comics’ question. Like Shag, most of my comic reading is done at night, in bed, once the kids are asleep. I set up a pile each Wednesday night. I put a couple of books I know will deliver on the top and I put a couple of books I know will deliver on the bottom. And then the rest I sludge through end up in the middle. The ‘bottom book’ is the coveted spot and means I enjoy the book a lot and it always entertains. I like to end a week on an upswing. Current books that meet that criteria are Action Comics, All New Xmen, Daredevil, and (surprisingly) Smallville.

    I also agree with Rob’s assertion that team-up books are a thing of the past because too many readers ask the inane question ‘does this story matter’? Sometimes I just want a fun, ‘one and done’ story without caring about continuity. The Waid/Perez Brave and Bold seemed almost out of continuity and I didn’t care. It is a shame. Because as I said, those books were almost a Who’s Who before that book was around. They introduced me to a lot of DC’s minor characters.

    Thanks for plugging all the other sites. I have a lot of places to check out now.

  5. Justice League 3000: “Superman is a dick. Batman is always in his face. Wonder Woman is a savage warrior who lives to fight. The Flash is the only nice guy on the team.” Wait, are you sure you’re describing JL3K? That sounds a lot like the regular Justice League book, which sounds a lot like INJUSTICE. The dark alternative take on familiar characters doesn’t work when they’re no longer alternative because the mainstream is as dark as can be.

    Thanks for introducing me to the “Nam” Podcast, as well as the Sympathy for the Blue Devil blog and a whole lot more in this episode. Great stuff from and for the community!

  6. Tim Wallace says:

    I liked this episode (ok…i like ‘em all)…and not just because of the plug (check’s in the mail guys, lol) but it was cool to hear about everyone elses blogs and podcasts too! I knew about a few of them, but now I know more (and we all know that knowing is half the battle)…and rest assured I’ll be adding them to my “links” on my own page, listening to the podcasts, and killing time at work surfing some new sites!

    JL3000? I’ll check it out. I’ve heard mostly good things, though I too was disappointed when I learned it wouldnt be a reunion of Giffen, DeMatteis and Maguire…that would have been a book for the ages! I have to admit, I’ve never been a huge Legion fan…more a casual acquaintance, aware of them thru cross-overs, event books, and Smallville…but Shag’s theory piqued my interest, so I’ll grab what I can on my next trip to ye olde comics shoppe

  7. Frank says:

    1) China Beach is one of my all-time favorite TV shows, and ended up having a big impact on me. The first season was the best, as I didn’t feel the program ever fully recovered from losing Chloe Webb. I think I started to drift away in the third season, but I was definitely back for the series finale. I seem to recall watching some reruns on Lifetime in the early ’90s, but I haven’t seen most the episodes since they originally aired a quarter century ago. I bought the first season on DVD last year, but ended up gifting it instead of watching. I’m seriously considering picking up the series set with my income tax return, as it’s surprisingly expensive (Season 1 on Amazon: $15, 2: $20, 1-4 box set: $299.95, although you can save $100 buying directly from Time/Life.) I guess getting the music rights was hell. I will always have love in my heart for most of the original cast, especially Dana Delany.

    2) I read The ‘Nam for the first six issues, and felt strongly favorable about the book. I think I quit following it because the family moved to another state for a year, and between empty pockets and different distribution channels, the choice was taken out of my hands. I also never went back and tried the book again once my life settled down a bit. I can’t explain why I didn’t pick up The ‘Nam Magazine when that started. I guess I’m waiting for a big fat reprint edition to be offered, as opposed to Marvel just doing the first ten for $30.

    3) I bought the Atomika Hero Squared X-tra Sized Special and thought it was okay, but when it continued at BOOM! for $4, I drew the line at $2.99.

    4) I’m going to join the consensus on rejecting Shag’s recommendation of Justice League 3000. A funny team with Kevin Maguire would have rated a trade trial, but gritty snark with Howard Porter is of no interest to me. That’s not meant to slight the creators– I liked Magog #1 and considered buying the trade. The era of Dan Didio has just so thoroughly poisoned my affection for DC Comics that I actively seek out reasons not to buy their product. Prior to Flashpoint, I was already down to R.E.B.E.L.S. as the final ongoing series from DC I subscribed to. I was excited about the possibilities of the New 52, and tried oodles of those books in hopes of rekindling my love, all for naught. I’m not even going to buy Justice League Unlimited, despite a swell cast and creative team, after having been burned on Stormwatch and Justice League of America. I also want an optimistic Legion of Super-Heroes, but so long as DC crushes any untainted altruism in their line in favor of video game mentality, I have no cause to extend any benefit in the face of significant doubt.

    5) I don’t see how doing an Aquaman movie and adapting “Throne of Atlantis” are mutually exclusive. It actually explains why he was replaced by Shazam in War. If you look at The Flashpoint Paradox, you have an alternate universe story with a large, recognizable cast, but the Scarlet Speedster is unquestionably the main character. It’s still one of the DTV DC animated movies’ lowest earners, while Green Lantern: First Flight came in at #9 and Green Lantern: Emerald Knights came in #15. It seems to me DC could combat the trend of people cherry-picking their releases by establishing a film-to-film continuity that forces the audience to buy each installment to “complete” the set. Aquaman could have his origin told at length, which would lead to his encountering Ocean Master and being introduced to the League in the new Post-Paradox DC animated universe through “Throne.” That way, it builds up Aquaman to the audience without relying on him to carry the weight of the entire production. Also, Jay Oliva has not had a great track record as a director of these features, so you’d better hope for Lauren Montgomery or Sam Liu to be announced.

    6) There are still Zunes in use?

  8. I am going to be passing on JL3000, but I had no interest in the series from either creative team. The problem for me with these Justice League books is the same problem with the Avengers books over at Marvel — I don’t get the feeling that any of it really matters.

    (Old Man Rant) When I first got into comics, one of the reasons why I was drawn to first Uncanny X-Men and then Avengers was that the long-running nature of the series meant that it “mattered.” The stories inside were contiguous and the ups and downs of the team, the comings and goings, were important. Now, with 4 Justice League books and I can’t even tell you how many Avengers books, none of it really matters because the team books now serve as either 1) the book where big fight stories happen or b) the driver for the next event (Marvel especially being guilty of this one).

    The aspect of “mattering” which I got from even lesser Avengers arcs *coughChuckAustencoughcough* when I was younger is gone now and while I was never a big JL reader, I got the exact same vibe from Justice League of America. I am not spending $2.39 (after discount) every month for a book which doesn’t excite me just because Hawkman might show up in it. Not at this point in my life, anyway.

    The “Big Two” solo books I read — Iron Man, Flash, and Larfleeze — all “matter” when I read them because they seem to espouse the contiguous aspect I mentioned above. Admittedly Larfleeze is not even at double-digits yet, but it still feels like “the” story of Larfleeze when I read it. Same with Flash and Iron Man.

    @Frank, just as an aside, I believe that the idea of doing Flashpoint followed by War and then what we’re calling “Throne Of Atlantis” is much in the vein you suggested; by establishing a new continuity, I believe DC Animation is trying to make each release “crucial” (to borrow a phrase from GI Joe toy collecting) so that buyers won’t “pick and choose.” I am pretty sure I read that in an intwerview somewhere, though I am blanking on who said it…

  9. Frank says:

    Luke, I feel much the same way about the JL/Avengers branding. Marvel did everything but title Guardians of the Galaxy “Space Avengers,” which sounds like an interior decoration show. At least when the X-universe exploded in the ’90s, there were different words after the hyphen and varied “mission statements.” I’m buying the first trade of “Newer New Avengers,” but only because I get that it’s an Illuminati series, even if Marvel wants to obscure that fact. In the case of JL/JLU/JLDark, the dilution of the brand recalls the days of J.L.A./Extreme Justice/JLTF, where there’s no reason for all these books to be similarly titled other than desperation to fill shelf space. I could buy a space-themed new DC team and treat it as a fresh, isolated book, but as the latest League satellite title that possibly only exists to prop up the crossover prelude to a separate event mini-series that will end the series I thought I was following and launch another iteration with a new #1? I just say no. At Marvel, the constant deaths, resurrections, and reshufflings proves nothing is sacred and no decision irreversible, so their universe doesn’t “matter.” At DC, where we should have seen a hard reboot and a firm plan of action, it’s instead a land of capricious editorial fiat where nothing sticks. They’re ADD where they need to be OCD, in a hyperactive mania where they make a lot of noise but accomplish nada.

  10. @Frank, you’re dead-on regarding the 1990s X-titles; those books were what I would call “contiguous” in and of themselves. A good example is X-Factor. When the second X-Factor team (Havok, Polaris, etc.) debuted, it was a hard break from the original X-Factor team. From there on, the general tone, voice, and story of the series was fairly consistent, no matter who the creative team was. X-Factor was the “sanctioned team which had to deal with the Feds.” Same with X-Force being the “militant” team, and Excalbur was the “weird” team (or, if you prefer, the post-Fatal Attractions team became the “proactively stop threats from escalating” team). I read X-Factor for years and years, and even though it was a “B” title, it still “mattered.”

    “At Marvel, the constant deaths, resurrections, and reshufflings proves nothing is sacred and no decision irreversible, so their universe doesn’t “matter.” ”

    One of the main reasons that my Marvel output is literally down to one title, and it’s the one I have been reading since I was 15: Iron Man. And that book and character has absorbed a lot of shakeups in that time, but the solo books tend to fare better than the team books. Even if you make “Iron Man” a brand, it’s just more books with Iron Man; it doesn’t fundamentally change the concept of the character the way that a meaningless franchising of a team changes the core concept of said team.

    I bought, and really enjoyed, the first 3 issues of Mighty Avengers. Luke Cage leading a team of street level heroes! What’s not to like for someone like me? What’s not to like is that I know no matter how much I enjoy it, in 18 or 22 issues it’ll end, the stories will be forgotten and the characters shuffled on off to other books or back to obscurity. Sorry, but as much as I am enjoying the stories, that is not worth my money and devotion.

    Compare that to my box of Luke Cage comics from the 1970s… yeah, they might be dated and corny in places, but I’ll be damned if those stories don’t “matter.” Maybe that’s just me, though.

  11. [...] for a clever match-up! Given my recent speculation about Justice League 3000, this fight gives me pause for thought. Art by Peter Temple and Mark [...]

  12. Frank says:

    7) I imagine that Atlantis has a lot of trappings of the surface world because it originated from the surface, then sank. I guess magic explains why these ancient artifacts are still standing. What I can’t explain is how the social structures from millenia ago survived. You’d think in an ocean teaming with resources and predators, without clear need for a supply chain or other such infrastructure, that humanoids from the deep would descend into tribalism as simple hunter/gatherers. DC/Marvel have never populated their seas with a diversity of cultures, so one would expect homogeneity and a general atrophy of progress through lack of motivation from external forces.

    8) Nowadays, I do so much writing that I don’t have a lot of time for other hobbies. I do a lot of casual reading of the internet, but I don’t spend much time with books anymore. I also find most modern comics dissatisfying, either based on the quality of the content or simply due to decompression depriving me of a substantive reading installment. Instead, I like to let a trade (or more) accumulate and then read them all in one sitting, usually in bed, without regard for the time of day. Also, I’m currently working on a project where I read every version of an issue number of T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents and review them all at once. The 60s & 80s incarnations offered multiple stories in each extra-length issue, so by the time I finish them all, I’m “full” for a while. Luckily, few of the series ever made it past #6, so that’ll lighten my workload a bit. My other “floppies” have been piling up unread since autumn.

    I try not to be one of those “art first” guys, but I think there are more well drawn comics than well written ones. If I find a really good writer, I’ll forgive a lot on the art front, but there are very few times I’ll buy a book solely for the art these days. Chas Truog never bothered me, but if there’s one artist that I struggle to tolerate even when paired with a great writer, it’s Rick Leonardi. I can’t think of another artist whose ticks have pushed me off or dissuaded me from picking up more books.

    9) There’s something unseemly about a guy from Florida slagging on New Jersey. Can’t we all just agree that you’re both bad?

    10) Me-yohl-near. I’d also accept “mew-mew.” Also, con·flat·ed: to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole

    11) Alex Saviuk is possibly the most excellent exemplary expression in all of comicdom of such superlatives as “functional,” “serviceable,” “workmanlike” and “utilitarian.” He draws things that look exactly like drawings of things. Surely everyone remembers his seven year run on nobody’s favorite long-lived Spider-Man comic, shepherding such heralded classics as “Cult of Love,” “The Name of the Rose,” and “That Long One Where Chameleon Took J. Jonah Jameson’s Place?” Plus 24 of 27 issues of Spider-Man Adventures and two Spidey super-stories in cooperation with the National Action Council for Minorities in Engineering! Has anyone ever drawn more appearances of Rocket Racer, Will o’ the Wisp, the Lobo Brothers, and Puma, or would want to? He will live forever in our memories as Marvel’s “guy who’ll draw anything we licence 1987″ and for his recent efforts on Stan Lee’s Mighty 7!

    12) My first memorable and most devastating cancellation as a kid was Dreadstar and Company, since it was my favorite book and was just beginning a bold new direction. At least the book offered a clear explanation of the wheres and whys of it all. Thankfully, it was only a reprint series, so I was able to continue the story through the direct market Baxter series a few years later when I gained access to a comic shop that stocked it.

    13) A clarification regarding …nurgh…: For the last several years, it has existed almost solely for my occasional reviews of comics and other entertainment media. I like to think it bridges the gap between thoughtful, professional critiques and the expletive laden trollish dismissals found in the comments section after such things. The blog was initially a catch-all for my interests, which included softcore films (most specifically the infamous Emmanuelle franchise and its various knock-offs) but the lack of an age gate rightly indicates a complete lack of graphic nudity or violence on-site, so anyone visiting with just the one free hand will be sorely disappointed. The nastiest thing you can find there are some ancient pictures of a guy who was stricken by uncontrollable diarrhea while running a marathon.

    14) It took me 5 months to order Hey Kids, Comics!, and I know how to work Amazon.

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