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Geek Talk – FIRE & WATER #76

Firestorm and Aquaman: The Fire and Water PodcastThe 76th episode of THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST is now available for your listening pleasure! THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST is the official podcast of FIRESTORM FAN and THE AQUAMAN SHRINE.

Geek out with us! This episode Shag and Rob discuss a range of comic-related topics, such as: Dan Jurgens on Aquaman & the Others and The New 52: Futures End, the new Justice League animated movie, Justice League United, ways to make DC money from old school fans, and the first installment of the long-awaited Tales from the Kubert School!

You can find the 76th episode of THE FIRE AND WATER PODCAST on iTunes. While you’re there, please drop us a review on the iTunes page. Every comment helps! Alternatively, you may download the podcast by right-clicking here, choosing “Save Target/Link As”, and selecting a location on your computer to save the file (28 MB).

As always, thanks to my co-host Rob Kelly, Sea King of THE AQUAMAN SHRINE, for doing all the post-production on these episodes! Opening theme, “That Time is Now,” by Michael Kohler. Special thanks to Daniel Adams and Ashton Burge with their band The Bad Mamma Jammas for our fantastic original closing theme! This episode brought to you in part by!

Have a question or comment? Looking for more great content?

Here is a collage representing this episode’s topics! Enjoy!

Fire and Water Podcast Episode #76

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  1. Kyle Benning says:

    I’m not sure when you guys recorded, so this news may not have broken yet, but other big DC news is that Ted Kord is in fact returning to the New DCU in the pages of Forever Evil #7!!!!!! HUGE NEWS!!!

    I know this has been all over, but you guys definitely need to get another interview with Dan as we get closer to the launch of Dan’s run on Aquaman & The Outsiders and the Firestorm story in Future’s End. Dan is the man! He’s is great chatting with at SpringCon and FallCon every year in St. Paul, MN. The only way this could be better is if Dan was drawing both stories himself! If that were happening, I could snag pages from both series this spring and rub it in both of your faces 😛 I kid, I kid.

    So now we don’t just have the 5 year Timeline? We have a 10 year Timeline as well? Aye Carumba! I don’t see this as an issue for a great writer like Dan, but I am concerned about the effectiveness of the DC Editorial staff, which let’s face it, has been less than great since the New 52 Launch. My biggest concern about a future story, taking place 5 years in the future is what happens when the rest of the DC Universe catches up? Since the editorial staff has firmly decided on a setting “real” timeframes that means that we eventually have to catch up right? So say in 10 years of publishing, when they finally catch up to that 5 year future they are setting now, will they actually acknowledge those stories? That’s assuming the universe hasn’t been rebooted again by that point.

    I’ll be buying that DVD tomorrow, can’t wait to check it out. I’ll be spreading the word on if it’s good or not and worth the $12.99 (this was the price Target listed in their ad in the Sunday paper). I plan on writing a review and will drop it on the Shrine Facebook page in a comment somewhere. I did see that it was in Target’s weekly ad, so at least Target is trying to raise a little awareness on it instead of just dropping it the day of on the new this week display. I’m hoping that they have some special features that aren’t included in the Run time. The Superman/Shazam direct to DVD was pretty short, sure it had some other small DC shorts, like that great Spectre film, but I still want to say the run time was below and hour combined for all the features and they still dropped that with a $20 price tag.

    Adam Strange is returning!!!!! But wait, he’s married? So DC puts the kobash on all of their major characters that were married, such as Superman and Aquaman, and prevent the crew of Batwoman from fulfilling their plans to marry Renee and , but they keep Adam Strange married? What?!? Where is the logic in that? I mean I like Alanna as much as anyone else, but their marriage in the grand scheme of things is low on the impact level, but they keep this one and throw out the others?

    Yeah I have some ideas for DC to make money, stop doing stupid things!! Reprint your good stuff that people want. Don’t give me an absolute edition of one of the most boring DC Arcs ever in JL War, give me a damn Absolute Edition of Panic in the Sky! I believe I was the one who brought up the Retroactive topic on a past episode feedback. DC bring back the Retroactive books every year! Imagine new tales set in the 40’s for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the JSA. I bought every Retroactive title they put out in 2011, and I’d do it every year! Those universes don’t exist anymore, but I want to read about my favorite characters from those eras I love. I agree with Rob on the Adventures of Superman comic and a Wonder Woman comic. The Adventures of Superman comic is awesome, it’s the only Superman book I’m currently reading, which speaks volumes when he’s my favorite character.

    I love the Tales from the Kubert school portion, very entertaining! That story was amazing! I can’t wait for more of these installments! JLA Annual #4, if I ever meet you, I’m going to have to get that issue signed for your contribution!

    Another great episode guys, fan the flame and ride the wave!

  2. Sean Koury says:

    Another fun episode, guys. I can’t wait for BOTH of these titles to hit the stands. Did you say when Aquaman and the Others was supposed to be coming out?

    Oh and the First Nations thing up here in Canada. I suppose that is the proper term for the native population of Canada, but most people, myself included just refer to them as Natives. I haven’t met one yet that found it offensive to be referred to as such, but they could secretly be cursing under their breath whenever they hear it. I’ll ask one of my native friends the next time I talk to them to make sure.

  3. Frank says:

    I loved What If…? as a kid, since it was not only the one comic where stuff could happen, but it was usually the most brutally wrenching stuff possible. I’d want more optimism if I read them as an adult. Probably the best part was it jumped directly off key plot points from canonical stories, and offered a wide variety of characters. But hey, Elseworlds was a champion at finding a different flavor of Batman or Superman every month or so for much of the ’90s. Blech. Remember “Legends of the Dead Earth?” Me neither.

    Who’s first in line to draw Composite Fire & Water Dan Jurgens? Unfortunately, Dan Jurgens is one of the top writers I want on a book from the list of creators I don’t particularly care to have on a book. He’s one of my least worst choices. Every once in a while, he’ll offer a swell story that impresses me enough that I’m genuinely surprised that he was capable of producing it. More often, he’s behind solid but unexceptional runs on books like Tomb Raider and Thor. Most often, I am either indifferent or actively disdainful of his efforts. He launched the worst extended period in Justice League’s publishing history, the most dire volume of Teen Titans, the longest uninterrupted run of overrated milquetoast Superman comics, scripted one of the most incomprehensible, uninteresting DC linewide crossover events and as an artist he’s a palatable journeyman. The closest he came to a run of Martian Manhunter stories birthed Bloodwynd, and blessedly he never cast his pall over Wonder Woman. Under the Didio regime, he’s the guy who says yes to projects after other people say “no” or “I know I said yes at first but now I’m saying no.” Keith Giffen is the guy who says yes to the stuff even Dan Jurgens says no to. If Jeff Lemire and Brian Azzarello bail on Future’s End like Greg Rucka and Brian Keene already have, we’re going full ball Countdown with this thing.

    It is not true that Action Comics Weekly was a financial failure, as it was in the top third of DC sales and performing well above its pre-Byrne days. What killed the project was that it was a production nightmare to put together 48 pages of story every week, and nobody wanted to deal with it after nearly a year on that treadmill. Marvel Comics Presents solved the problem by offering 32 pages bi-weekly for 175 issues, which in turn saw DC return to the anthology format with the 48ish page monthly Showcase.

    As noted, 52 was a big success creatively and commercially as a weekly, and Brightest Day as a bi-weekly. Other projects, like Trinity, seemed to put the format first without a strong enough premise to sustain it.

    Early reviews on the JLA Adventures cartoon are pretty good, and I hear the price is $13 (or $21 on Amazon second hand.) I bet I’ll like it better than most DC animated movies. I wonder if the “stealth release” has something to do with contracts with other retailers (Wal-Mart?) that would prohibit promotion for a competitor’s exclusive wares. It’s not even on the Target website, though Justice League: The Complete Series is, described as “Released by Warner Home videos, the Justice League TV series follows the adventures of the Marvel superheroes.” Of the DTV DC movies I’ve bought, I paid $10 or less for most of them, and I’ll wait this out until it inevitably goes on sale.

    2012 may have been the Mayan apocalypse, but 2015 looks to be the movie one. So many tentpoles were scheduled for that summer, it was inevitable that some studios would eventually blink. Superman/Batman could own 2016 if it takes advantage of the breathing room to improve mightily on the under-performing Man of Steel, but even without improvements, the lessened competition can’t hurt.

    I was a major Star Wars kid, but as I got older, I shifted toward the more intellectual Star Trek. The prequels destroyed my affection, so it’ll be an uphill battle to get me back, and I don’t think JJ Abrams has the spine for the weight.

    I don’t think the absence or omission of “America” has ever hurt the Justice League title, but the inclusion of anyplace but America in the title seems to immediately b-list it here and abroad. “United” will still be the “other” JL book, but that’s better than being Alpha Flight. Also, DC could use its own Guardians of the Galaxy, without the desperate “Space Avengers” tag, and this is that. Great line-up. Look forward to the trade paperback.

    Shag oversells DC Retroactive. Those books only moved 9-12K units each, and were intended to memorialize the Pre-Flashpoint DC Universe. They’re not going to do that again. Another problem is brand confusion. DC doesn’t want to be associated with World War II or the historical record in general. They want to be the younger, hipper, more violent/sexy video game alternative to Disney’s Marvel super-heroes. They want to be Injustice/Arkham Comics, and are fine with niche sells for other multimedia properties like Smallville, but they do not want your aging dollars anymore because you taint their kewl ‘verse by association. DC is seriously trying to run you off and hook your kids. Your indignation warms the tummy of DC Entertainment of Burbank, California.

    That said, want my fanfic pitch? No? Then skip this paragraph. I say take a page from Infinite Crisis and offer Earth-8. I feel the presence of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman has overwhelmed Earth Two, so how about a world where they never existed. Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Roy Harper, and Garth grew up without their intervention and influence to become the transformed powerhouses who shaped this world, some less than benevolent in that role. This is basically ’90s land, filled with all the legacy characters and weird variations like Breach, the Jack Knight Starman, Cassandra Caine, New Bloods, lesser Leaguers/Titans and so forth. Still works as part of the New 52, but offers sanctuary to characters that fit poorly (like maybe the Outlaws are like the World’s Finest from Earth-8. A solid mini-series, at least?

    The Kubert School anecdote was lovely. Sounds like it might have been clandestinely acting as the HERO Foundation of its day.

  4. Kyle Benning says:

    Frank I agree with many of your points quite often, but you totally miss the mark on Dan Jurgens, who quite honestly has been one of the most influential and solid comic creators for the past 25 years or so. In the 90’s a decade full of less than spectacular crap, Dan continued to write and/or draw solid stories throughout the decade. His Superman and Cap runs are pretty spectacular. He had a very lengthy run on Superman through a couple different titles and hit many more homeruns than he had strike outs. Even his worst is looking pretty good now compared to New 52 Superman. I get that you hate Bloodwynd and feel bad for poor Marty Manhunter, but when you pick a lame character as your favorite, you should be ready for creators to wipe their feet on them and treat them like a doormat.

    I found his Titans run entertaining, it was different, but quite good when you consider DC wouldn’t let him use any of the past Titans. Hate to bring New 52 in again, but the worst issue of Dan’s Titans run is still leagues better than any of Lobdell’s issues in the current Titans run. He took a bunch of misfit nobody characters and made them interesting, and the artwork is gorgeous, especially when George Perez was inking Dan’s Pencils.

    I assume you’re referencing Zero Hour when you speak of his “uninteresting DC Crossover,” and you know what, I just reread that not too long ago, and still find it a pretty entertaining read, again with some gorgeous Jurgens art and Ordway inks. Any shortcomings that the story may have (very few in my opinion) it makes up for with the art, especially when you consider this book was released weekly, the first Weekly Crossover event wasn’t it? That was unheard of at the time. But then again, you liked the Bloodlines Crossover, so obviously you and I have very different tastes and opinions on quality. Live and let live I guess. You keep loving Bloodlines/Bloodbath and praising Dan Raspler, and I’ll keep loving Zero Hour.

  5. Frank says:

    I’m not going to take the bait, because I felt bad about how thoroughly I worked Jurgens over, and am pleased someone came to his defense. Even if it was Kyle Benning, the one person on Earth wowed by Protocide.

  6. Tim Wallace says:

    I’d love to see more Retro-Active books! Heck, I’d take more Elsewords or even old school imaginary stories. When the New 52 launched I picked up 40 or so first issues. I was quickly down to about 20 titles on my pull list, and then with cancellations or changes to creative teams and story directions on the titles I did like I’m now down to about 10 monthly DC titles…probably the lowest I’ve hit since I started collecting! Instead I’ve been buying more back issues and trades of stuff I liked when I was younger…that’s why I liked the Retro-Active…and why I would absolutely pick up more if they did it again!

    The idea of having multiple timelines/universes is genius and would absolutely get me buying more titles…sadly I don’t think anyone at DC is thinking the same way

  7. Tim Wallace says:

    And I nearly forgot…I would LOVE to see a Superman ’55 comic! “The Adventures Of Superman” with George Reeves is “my” Superman…that the voice I hear when I read the comics. And I chose ’55 because it not only mimics the feel of Batman ’66, but it falls smack in the middle of the TV series 1952-58 run! Heck…Wonder Woman ’77 would complete the trilogy and also fall in the middle of that series’ 1975-79 run…do you see the planets aligning? lol

  8. Siskoid says:

    Sorry I’m late to the party. I didn’t know I had a question to answer, but Sean did a good job of it. How to call the Amerind peoples of Canada has changed at least three times in my lifetime. In French at least.

    When I was in middle school, I used to live 10 feet from the border between our town and its (to use the terminology of the time) Indian reservation. My best friend at the time was Native and positively HATED any term other than “Indian”. He hated Amerindian. He hated the French version of Native, “autochtone” which was starting to be in vogue. And we’ve lost of each other, but I bet he hates “First Nations” too. But yeah, Shag, it’s the correct usage.

    I’m stoked to be on the team, even if I am a bit of a Snapper Carr (or maybe an Oberon). I’d like to say I’d be a Dale Gunn, but let’s be real here.

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